this was his religion. >> we, you are absolutely right. even though he went through chechen prison, whenever people from different denominations came in, they obviously wanted to see him, so he would go and sit and listen very attentively. that was yet another of mandela's personas. >> as a politician, let's end with this. one of the most remarkable things was when there was a changeover in power, ordinarily, you wipe out who was there. especially under conditions like apartheid. how did he sell the idea of keeping africanos in government, how did he make that okay with the african people? >> i think personally at a fundamental level, he recognized that africanos were south africans just like everyone of us. that's a lessen he learned in prison and emphasized in prison. he had a cordial relationship and we learned from him. the most important message who to trust, please dobi don't be consumed by hatred. it no cusses on the wrong things. that's a message he carried outside of prison. amazing, he was able to carry huge numbers of people aro